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大伙觉得银项链带吊坠好看还是不带吊坠好看？
1.铂金项链有粗有细的。铂金项链可以搭配清色翡翠佛或者钻石吊坠，无论是搭配翡翠佛还是钻石吊坠其实都很好看!因为铂金的色泽清浅，配合温婉翡翠和璀璨钻石都可以使链子更显纯净优雅。钻石吊坠2.要根据铂金链子的粗细和吊坠的大小来搭配，如果你的翡翠佛是大个的，可以配条粗一点的，但是不要太粗，要衬起来好看。如果你的铂金项链是比较细的，可以搭配教小一点的钻石吊坠，这样看起来会更漂亮一点。另外，铂金项链还可以佩戴铂金的吊坠，看起来也会很合拍;也可以佩戴一些水晶吊坠，如黄水晶、白水晶、粉晶、碧玺等，看起来晶莹剔透，亦十分美观大方。需要注意的是：铂金化学性质稳定，一般不与别的东西发生反应的，不过，尽量不要挂银饰，银软，与铂金接触很容易给刮花哦!1.铂金项链有粗有细的。铂金项链可以搭配清色翡翠佛或者钻石吊坠，无论是搭配翡翠佛还是钻石吊坠其实都很好看!因为铂金的色泽清浅，配合温婉翡翠和璀璨钻石都可以使链子更显纯净优雅。钻石吊坠2.要根据铂金链子的粗细和吊坠的大小来搭配，如果你的翡翠佛是大个的，可以配条粗一点的，但是不要太粗，要衬起来好看。如果你的铂金项链是比较细的，可以搭配教小一点的钻石吊坠，这样看起来会更漂亮一点。另外，铂金项链还可以佩戴铂金的吊坠，看起来也会很合拍;也可以佩戴一些水晶吊坠，如黄水晶、白水晶、粉晶、碧玺等，看起来晶莹剔透，亦十分美观大方。需要注意的是：铂金化学性质稳定，一般不与别的东西发生反应的，不过，尽量不要挂银饰，银软，与铂金接触很容易给刮花哦!希望我的回答对你有所帮助。
其他回答(共3条)
要根据项链的重量和做工决定，：s925银项链一般在100元左右。价格因素1，s925银项链的重量：一般情况下，重量越大，s925银项链价格越高2、做工精细程度：越精细的s925银项链往往手工费越高，从而s925银项链价格越高3、吊坠：一般情况下有宝石吊坠的s925银项链高于没有宝石吊坠的s925银项链，宝石价值越高，s925银项链价格越高s925银就是以含银量为92.5%的原料银制成的饰品。925银的加工工艺与纯银不同，它的亮度和光泽更接近于铂金，硬度也比纯银要好。（价格来自网络，仅供参考）
顶级akoya日本天然海水珍珠吊坠18k金专牛头款正圆无暇极强虹光￥1098.00牛头款高碳钻石吊坠女1克拉S925纯银项链欧美复古方块项链女款￥258.00牛头款吊坠项链女纯银镀金克拉钻石项链情侣锁骨链印记950饰品￥369.00以上价格均来源网络，仅供参考
ZLF/周六福珠宝黄金吊坠女款的报价为：384ZLF/周六福珠宝珍珠项链的报价为：559周六福珠宝银项链GDSF6345的报价为：439价格来源网络，仅供参考
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扫描下载二维码有没有和这个图一样的图片 就是形状也是kitty猫 里面填充的颜色啊什么的不同的图 谢谢大伙了帮忙找找_百度知道
有没有和这个图一样的图片 就是形状也是kitty猫 里面填充的颜色啊什么的不同的图 谢谢大伙了帮忙找找
有没有和这个图一样的图片
就是形状也是kitty猫
里面填充的颜色啊什么的不同的图
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参与上面帖子讨论
发表于：07-04-27 15:28
欢迎发贴!慢慢拜读!
金钱收买不了每一个人但是可以收买我，
暴力解决不了任何问题但是可以解决你！
发表于：07-08-12 14:27
主编研究生教材《马克思社会思想史纲》（社会科学文献出版社，1993年）
不知道这个说的是个啥
&&&&&&& 2005年，中国成为世界第四。2007年或2008年，中国可能超过德国，成为世界第三。如果不出意外，若干年后，中国产值有可能超过日本。在超过日本若干年后，中国产值有可能超过美国。中国超过美国之后，有可能长期保持世界第一。
如果中国产值能够超过美国并长期保持第一，那么，回过头来看，几千年整个人类社会的历史就是一个基本上中国第一的历史，1865之后这一百多年，就只不过是几千年中国第一的整个人类社会历史的一个小小的插曲。目前国际学术界对中国产值超过美国的时间点，有多种研究结果，时间点从2025年到2050年不等。整个人类社会历史是不是中国第一的历史，就看中国产值能不能超过美国并长期保持第一。如果超过了并长期保持第一，那么，回过头来看，中国第一，就是整个人类历史的常态；1865年之后这一百多年，就只是人类社会历史的一个变态。我们现在正站在整个人类社会历史的一个十字路口，一个人类社会历史的转折点。人类社会能不能从变态转回常态，人类社会历史能不能成为基本上以一个中国第一的历史，就看今后几十年中国人怎么干。在这个人类历史的关键时刻，在这个人类历史的转折点，中国人回顾过去、总结教训、展望未来、认清障碍、明确战略，至关重要。&
不知道这些第一有啥用啊，楼主要是没都多少书，估计也是个愤愤.
玩笑话，勿上心。
发表于：08-01-17 11:56
这篇文章在牛剑论坛引起轩然大波。正在进入法律程序。
波士顿生活网| 阅读主题- 西方国际社会学述评- [ Translate this page ]
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发表于：08-01-25 13:45
不是吧，搞到要对簿公堂那么严重？
金钱收买不了每一个人但是可以收买我，
暴力解决不了任何问题但是可以解决你！
发表于：08-02-01 22:49
&&[第2版 02-01 22:52]
牛剑学术论坛负责人shu wenmiao 欺人太甚，居然为此事在美国社会学界到处给教授写信，全力败坏我的名誉。有教授私下把信全文转给了我。那就摊到桌面上,法律解决算了。
以下是引用 第5楼 风间隼 的话：
不是吧，搞到要对簿公堂那么严重？ ...
发表于：08-02-26 20:32
国际社会学理论的最新发展：
Braudel Center, Binghamton University
http://fbc.binghamton.edu/commentr.htm
费尔南德．布罗代尔中心
纽约州宾汉顿大学，美国
Fernand Braudel
Center, Binghamton University
http://fbc.binghamton.edu/commentr.htm
伊曼纽尔．沃勒斯坦
（路爱国译）
评论第226号
2008年2月1日
2008年：新自由主义全球化的死亡
1980年代早期以来，新自由主义全球化意识形态滚滚向前。在现代世界体系历史中，它事实上并不是一种新理论，尽管它宣称如此。它其实是非常陈旧的理论，即世界各国政府不要干预有效的大型企业在世界市场争夺优势的努力。第一个政策含义就是，政府，即所有各国政府，都要允许这些公司带着它们的货物和它们的资本自由穿越各国边界。第二个政策含义是，政府，即所有各国政府，都不要在它们本身充当这些生产性企业所有者方面发挥任何作用，而要把它们拥有的一切都私有化。第三个政策含义是，政府，即所有各国政府，都要把向本国人口的所有各类社会福利转移支付最小化，如果不是完全取消的话。这种陈旧的理论以前总是周期性地成为时髦理论。
在1980年代，这些理论被提了出来，以对抗同样陈旧的凯恩斯主义和/或社会主义理论，后者在世界大多数国家一度占了上风：经济应当是混合的（国有加私有企业）；政府应当保护本国公民不受外国垄断性公司的掠夺；政府应当通过向本国较贫穷的居民转移利益（特别是教育、医疗和收入水平的终身保障），努力推动生活机会平等化，这当然就需要向比较富裕的居民和公司企业征税。
新自由主义全球化纲领利用了世界范围的利润停滞。1945年后直到1970年代初期是一个前所未有的长期全球扩张时期，在这之后，停滞开始了，促使凯恩斯主义和/或社会主义理论主导了政策。利润停滞给世界大批政府带来国际收支问题，特别在全球南方和所谓社会主义阵营国家。新自由主义反攻是美国和英国的右翼政府（里根和撒切尔）领导的，加上两个主要的政府间金融机构即国际货币基金组织和世界银行，它们联合打造并实施了后来所说的华盛顿共识。这个全球性联合政策的口号就是撒切尔夫人所说的TINA，或“没有其他选择”[There
is No Alternative]。口号意在向所有政府传达这样的信息，即它们必须同意这些政策建议，否则他们将遭到增长缓慢和在可能面对任何困难的时候得不到国际援助的惩罚。
华盛顿共识的许诺是重启各国经济增长和摆脱全球利润停滞。从政治上说，新自由主义全球化支持者们是非常成功的。一个又一个政府，无论在全球南方、社会主义阵营、还是强大的西方国家，都实行了产业的私有化，都向贸易和金融流动开放了本国边界，也都削弱了福利国家。社会主义理论，甚至凯恩斯主义理论，在公共舆论中大多名誉扫地，并遭到政治精英唾弃。最戏剧性的可见后果是东中欧和前苏联共产党政权垮台，再加上名义上仍为社会主义的中国采用了亲市场政策。
这种巨大政治成功的唯一问题是没有与之相称的经济成功。工业企业的利润停滞在世界范围内继续存在。各地股票市场的急剧走高不是建立在生产性利润上，而主要建立在投机性金融操纵上。世界范围和各国国内的收入分配都变得非常偏斜―世界人口中10%高收入人群，特别是1%的顶层，其收入大幅度增加，而世界人口中其他人群的实际收入大多下降了。
对一种无限制“市场”的崇拜在1990年代中期开始幻灭。这一点可以从很多进程中看到：很多国家那些更注重社会福利导向的政府重新掌权；重新呼吁政府出台保护主义政策，特别是来自劳工运动和农业工人组织的呼吁；世界范围内异向全球化[alterglobalization]运动的发展，其口号是“另一个世界是可能的。”
这种政治反应进展缓慢，但持续增强。与此同时，新自由主义全球化支持者们不但顽固不化，而且通过乔治．W．布什政权加大了他们的压力。布什政府在推动更加扭曲的收入分配（通过对富人大肆减税）的同时，推行强硬的单边军事主义外交政策（入侵伊拉克）。它用借债（负债）的急剧扩张对此提供资金，而这是通过向世界能源供应和低成本设备的控制者出售美国国库债券实现的。
假如人们只注意股票市场数字，帐面上看来挺好。但这是一个超级信用气泡，它必然破裂，它目前也正在破裂。入侵伊拉克（加上阿富汗再加上巴基斯坦）证明是一场军事和政治大惨败。美国经济的坚不可摧已经失去了信誉，引发了激烈的美元贬值。由于面临正在穿孔的气泡，世界上的股票市场都在颤抖。
那么，各国政府和人口从中得出怎样的政策结论？似乎将会得出4个结论。第一个是美元作为世界储备货币的作用终结，这就使无论美国政府还是其消费者都不可能继续推行超级负债政策。第二个是重返高度保护主义，不仅在全球北方，而且在全球南方。第三个是国家重新开始并购失利企业并推行凯恩斯主义措施。最后一个是重新采取更倾向社会福利再分配的政策。
政治平衡正在往回摆动。10年之后，新自由主义全球化将被作为资本主义世界经济历史的一次周期性摆动记录在案。真正的问题不是这个阶段是否结束，而是回摆是否能够，正如从前一样，恢复世界体系的相对均衡状态。或者，造成的破坏已经太大了？我们现在是否已经进入世界经济以及从而作为整体的世界体系的更加暴力的混乱之中？
[伊曼纽尔．沃勒斯坦（Immanuel Wallerstein）版权所有，Agence
Global负责发行。有关版权和授权，包括翻译和张贴到非商业网站事宜，请与、1.336.686..286.6606联系。在不改动本评论和展示版权所有条件下，允许下载、电子转发或通过电子邮件发送他人。如欲与作者联系，可发邮件给immanuel.wallerstein@yale.edu。
每月两次发表的这些评论，旨在从长时段而不是当前头条新闻的角度，对当今世界变化做出反应。]
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发表于：08-02-28 13:23
李毅博士致剑桥化学系主任的信
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李毅博士致剑桥化学系主任的信
May 11, 2007 Dr William Jones, Chairman Department of Chemistry University
of Cambridge Cambridge CB2 1EW United Kingdom ...
www.chubun.com/modules/planet/view.article.php/4138
致牛剑学术论坛管理委员会- 读书-
文学探戈- 德国开元华人社区
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德国开元华人社区李毅博士致剑桥化学系主任的信May
11, 2007 Dr William Jones, Chairman Department of Chemistry University of Cambridge
Cambridg .
www.kaiyuan.de/forum/viewthread.php?tid=180004&extra=page%3D1&page=2
牛剑论坛负责人是犯罪嫌疑人- 曼城学联-
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18:39 资料
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发表于：08-02-28 13:24
http://book.danawa.com.cn/book/5377191.html
http://www.sociology.cass.net.cn/shxw/zxwz/t32.htm
http://www.1488.com/china/Intolaws/LawPoint/22/001.shtml
http://www.lookinto.cn/article.asp?id=3526
http://www.frchina.net/data/personArticle.php?id=5933
http://www.chinaelections.com/NewsInfo.asp?NewsID=106296
http://www.sociology.cass.net.cn/shxw/zxwz/t73.htm
http://www.china.com/article/view.asp?id=598
http://www.sociology.cass.cn/shxw/zxwz/P.pdf
http://www.sachina.edu.cn/Htmldata/longbook/liyi_structure_china/index.html
http://www.frchina.net/person.php?id=234
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
发表于：08-02-28 13:26
牛剑论坛法人代表shu wenmiao 是犯罪嫌疑人,是剑桥化学系一个博士后。律师和执法部门正在寻找这个人。
不知为什么，在网上怎么都找不到这个人。找不到这个人，律师就无法立案，执法部门也无法发传票。因为是民事案件，执法部门要求律师提供详细地址才能立案。
有谁知道这个人的中文姓名、英文姓名、办公地址、办公电话，请告知。有重谢。
李 毅 博士
发表于：08-03-02 07:34
谢谢读者举报
这个嫌疑犯可能找到了。
Criminal suspect wenmiao
Mar 2, 2008&&
To: A.Moore@hw.ac.uk
A.Moore@hw.ac.uk
Personal Web pages Home pages
Dear Dr. A. J.
If I am not wrong,
this wenmiao shu,
, is the suspect of criminal activity, which I had looked for since May 2007.
Lawyers and legal authorities had look for him since then. &&
The criminal activities
of this wenmiao shu are attached. See two attachments.
If it is true,
this wenmiao shu should be a post-doctor in Cambridge, associated with Cambridge's
Chemical Department, in May 2007.
If it is true,
I would like to sue this suspect of criminal activity as soon as possible.
Is my hypothesis
right? Thank you very much for your clarification.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
2 attachments
Shu Wenmiao Case.doc
To Shu Wenmiao's boss.doc
发表于：08-03-05 00:18
&&[第2版 02-18 23:50]
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
李 毅 简 介 &
旅美社会学家。
中国西北大学78级文学学士，北京大学社会学系修满研究生学分，美国密苏里大学(MU)社会学硕士，美国伊利诺伊大学(UIC)社会学博士。理论研究方向为唯物史观、世界体系论、社会发展大战略。方法论研究方向为定性社会学、历史社会学、比较社会学。学科研究方向为公共政策学、国际社会学、发展社会学、分层社会学。主要英文著作为University Press of America (美国大学出版社)
2005年出版的The
Structure and Evolution of Chinese Social Stratification
(《中国社会分层的结构与演变》)，有安徽大学出版社中译本。中国国家社科基金项目1990年第489号课题负责人，主编研究生教材《马克思社会思想史纲》（社会科学文献出版社，1993）。著有《社会学概论》（暨南大学出版社，2011）。中国教育部科研项目【2008】890号“国际社会学的学科建设”课题负责人。
李毅英文著作见：
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
李毅部分中文论著如下，恭请批判：
1．李毅《社会学概论》
2．《中国社会分层的结构与演变》
3．《马克思社会思想史纲》
4．国际社会学（第三章）
5．中国重回世界第一大战略
6．新形势下的中国社会变革三部曲
7．中国应创建世界一流社会学
8．精神国力与中国百年国耻的原因
9．官员财产申报与党员遗产限额
10．秦始皇毛泽东散论
11．美日中台台海战略
12．祖国统一的时机与方式
13．有关重庆模式的三点看法
发表于：08-03-27 23:57
祖国统一的时机与方式
李 毅& 博士
（2007年3月11日）
中国2005年产值世界第四，2007年或2008年可能超过德国，成为世界第三。之后，有可能在若干年内超过日本，之后，有可能在若干年内超过美国。
（十亿美元）
这是我们讨论台海问题的国际大环境。我认为，台独突发事变的危险期在2005年底就基本结束了， 台海和平能够维持一个相当长的时间， 但目前没有任何可能实现和平统一的迹象。
一，突发台独事变危险期2005底就基本结束了
从1996到2005年，在美日有关势力的支持下，在李登辉、陈水扁领导下，台独迅猛发展，总统直选，立委直选，1996年、2000年、2004年泛绿三次赢得大选，并开始试办公投，突发台独事变的可能性急剧上升。这种形势，2005年底完全改变了。2005年底，泛绿输了立委选举，之后，泛绿又输了地方选举。从此，在赢得下一次立委和总统选举之前，泛绿失去了任何进行法理台独的可能性。
我认为，出现这样的转折，虽然与大陆国力、军力的迅速增强有关，但主要原因是美国陷入了中东事务。现在看来，美国要摆平伊拉克、摆平伊朗、摆平叙利亚、摆平巴勒斯坦，至少需要三、五年，可能还要更长时间。在美国摆平中东之前，不可能支持任何台独突发事变。没有美国支持，发生台独事变，就等于美国把台湾白送给中国。台湾人民在2005底就把这个形势看透了，所以再也不支持泛绿在台独的方向上往前冲了。2005年以后，只要陈水扁或任何泛绿领导人鼓吹推进台独，美国的反应不比中国迟多少，也不比中国软多少。美国的这种态度，会至少保持到基本摆平中东之后。
二，台海和平至少会维持到2020年前后
美国希望不战而永远保持中国分裂。台湾在美国不支持的形势下不敢搞台独突发事变。只要大陆不动手，就不会有战争。大陆现在非常明确，要利用二十一世纪头二十年，全力发展经济，称之为战略机遇期，只要没有突发台独事变，决不在台海发动战争。因此，台海和平至少会保持到2020年前后。
最近，美国全面调整了全球政策。对北朝鲜让步。对伊朗、叙利亚让步。在拉丁美洲不搞对抗。会不会因此能够在不长的时间里把五个指头都收回来，把两个拳头都收回来，因此又出现台独突发事变的可能性？这个还要看。我以为，即使美国如期摆平中东，如期收回了两个拳头，在台海出手、支持台独突发事变的可能性也非常之小。台海和平至少维持到2020年前后应该是可以预期的。
三，目前没有看到任何和平统一的可能性
在没有发生台独事变的情况下，如果大陆武力统一，美日出兵干预的战略决心丝毫没有改变。美日海空军对中国海空军的绝对优势丝毫没有改变。美国不惜代价、永远保持对华军事优势的战略决心没有改变。美国武装台湾、坚决支持台湾以武拒统的战略态势丝毫没有改变。即使过了2020年，改变的可能性也看不到。这是由美日的国家根本战略利益决定的，与意识形态无关，与领导人个性无关。
目前，绝大多数大陆人民对台湾的形势有极大的误解。目前，还没有任何迹象表明和平统一可能实现。相反，台湾人民走向台独的潮流，目前看来，是台湾岛内没有任何势力可以抗拒的。陈水扁在2007年元旦文告中，有一段很重要的话：
2000年6月，在本人刚就任总统时，有关单位对国家认同所做的民调显示，自认是台湾人占36.9%、自认是中国人为13.1%、既是台湾人也是中国人有43.8%。去年11月由“国立政治大学选研中心”所发表有关国家认同最新的跨国调查，自认是台湾人大幅成长为60.1%、自认是中国人降到 4.8%、两者都是则为33.4%，短短六年多的时间，变化可以说非常的显著。此外，依据陆委会于去年9月所做的民调，75.8%的民众支持政府应继续积极推动参与“联合国”的工作，而且有超过七成的民众赞成以台湾的名义申请加入“联合国”，显示一个以“台湾优先”为核心价值的“台湾主体意识”已经沛然成形。
陈水扁这段话讲得非常实事求是。虽然十年来两岸经贸发展异常迅猛，台湾人民的独立意识也随之迅猛发展。到2020年，自认为是中国人的，应在1%以下，自认为两者都是的，应在10%以下。自认为不是中国人的，应在90%以上。目前看来，即使马英九2008年选上，这个趋势也是改变不了的。多数台湾人民想台独却不支持搞台独，是因为不想为台独而死。
从目前形势看，在台海摊牌，只是个时间问题。躲得过初一，躲不过十五。中国的统一，即使不是尸积成山、血流成河的战争的结果，至少也是大兵压境之下的城下之盟。中国的经济和军事力量在2020年前后将发展到一个全新的水平。难道中国的统一可以无限期拖下去吗？难道中国的统一可以永远没有时间表吗？2020年前后，总得给中华民族的列祖列宗、子孙后代有个交待吧？到时候中国领导人怎么办？留待后人评说了。
这是作者2007年3月11日在大芝加哥地区华侨、华人强烈谴责陈水扁“四要一没有”座谈会上的发言。
发表于：08-04-01 13:11
当今中国社会各阶级阶层的分析（稳定篇）
根据我的研究，目前和今后相当长一段时间，中国社会将基本稳定；如无意外，不会出现大的动荡。
农民（没有外出打工当农民工，在家种地的农民），收入不高，生活不易，但总的说来多数农民的生活水平在逐步提高。只要耕者有其田，绝大多数农民就不会饥寒交迫。今日印度农民由于地主阶级依然存在而产生的饥寒交迫，在中国土改之后就永远一去不复返了。胡温对农民看得更重，一些政策更加到位，不少农民的收入近两年有显著提高，这是造成一年前珠三角民工荒的重要原因。极少数农民生活有所下降，许多农民对现实有诸多不满，但这些应不会引起整个中国农民阶级参与或支持的大的动荡。
农民工的待遇差，收入低，看起来问题很严重。但实际上，农民工的收入远高于没有出来打工的农民。对绝大多数农民工来说，第一位的问题，还不是待遇低、收入差的问题，而是能不能找到工作、能不能按时领到工资的问题。只要能找到工作，只要能按时领到工资，待遇再差、收入再低，占中国工人阶级一半的中国农民工都不会参与或支持全国性的大的动荡。
有城市户口的城市非国有企事业单位的工人，日子过得不错。由于有城市户口，坏工作都给了农民工，好工作在自己手上。城市职工，不论国有、非国有，都有养老保障、失业救济、最低生活保障。中国工人阶级的这一部分，日子不知道比农民工好多少倍。城市是有失业问题，但在任何一个中国城市，农民工的人数都要超过该市失业城市人口许多倍。可见不是没活儿干，而是因为活儿不好，不干。虽然有不少人端起碗来吃肉，放下筷子骂娘，但那是饭后茶余的事情。中国工人阶级这个阶层不会参与或支持全国性的大的动荡。
十年前占中国工人阶级一半的国有企业工人和城市大集体企业工人，其中大部分在短短几年时间里已经不存在了。多数转到了城市非国有企事业单位。继续留在国企的，多数留在好企业。银行投资保，两电加一草，石油加石化，扫地都不少。国内外媒体经常炒作下岗工人的问题。实际情况根本没有那么严重。有各式各样的救济和保障。我反复调查过，全中国没有听说饿死、冻死一个下岗工人。下岗工人的问题正在得到迅速解决，主要原因在于他们的年龄。女50、男55以上，就可以领退休金。无论在东部、中部、西部，退休金都可以保证丰衣足食。要不了多久，中国所有下岗工人都要到领退休金的年龄了。国企下岗工人这个阶层，很快就要自行消亡了。
1500多万中国资产阶级，多数是党员，多数过去或现在是干部。党和政府能让资本家发财，更能让资本家破产。党和政府对中国资产阶级照顾得很好。现在，中国资产阶级与党和政府的关系，比工人、农民与党和政府的关系还好。对于党和政府，资本家比工人和农民更听话。普丁用特种部队抓挑战政府的大资本家的事情，根本不可能在中国出现。我认为，现在中国资产阶级对党和政府的感情和支持程度，决不在中国农民阶级和中国工人阶级之下。中国资产阶级期盼稳定的程度，远大于中国农民阶级和中国工人阶级。
最后就是4000多万干部和2500多万准干部了。4000多万干部包括700多万公务员，和国营企事业单位的管理人员和专业技术人员。在理论上，国有企业干部这个概念在2002年正式取消了。总起来讲，这4000多万干部的生活水平，比农民和工人的生活水平提高的要快得多。全世界都看到了，中国大学毕业生考公务员的越来越多了，当公务员越来越难了。2500多万在非国有企事业单位工作的大专以上毕业生的日子，总体来讲，比4000万国家干部只好不坏。没听说这6500多万人里面有人想破坏稳定。
简言之，目前和今后相当长一段时间里，中国社会将基本稳定。因为没有哪个阶级阶层有什么理由要搞不稳定。至于能有多和谐，那就事在人为了。
发表于：08-04-09 03:33
世界亚洲史协会关于西藏问题的交锋
Yi Li&&dr.liyi@&&&&
&hide details
&11:50 am (15 hours ago)&
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture&&H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
"Linda Dwyer, Independent Scholar&"&&dwyer@mail.h-net.msu.edu&
Re: H-ASIA: Dr. Ann Kent on China, Tibet, and the Olympics
I disagree with
Dr. Ann Kent.
issue, just like Taiwan issue, is not an issue of democracy or human right,
but an issue of China's unification or separation.
Just like some
Taiwanese want Taiwan Independence, some Tibetans want Tibet Independence.
These Tibetans are separatists. If there are separatists in the United States,
Japan, Germany, Briton, France, or Australia, what are the results? They would
be cracked down without mercy. However, mainly because Western pressure, in
last two decades, Chinese government treated Tibetan separatists very softly
and weakly. &&
We are social scientists.
There are no good guys or bad guys here. If I am a Taiwanese, maybe I want
Taiwan Independence. If I am a Tibetan, maybe I want Tibet Independence. However,
if I am Chinese government, maybe I would treat the separatists much more harsh.
Dr. Ann Kent's
comments on Tibetan issue are very unprofessional, very un-academic, and very
political.
References:
Knaus, John Kenneth.
1999. Orphans of the Cold War: American and the Tibetan Struggle for Survival.
PublicAffairs.
Conboy, Kenneth
and James Morrison. 2002. The CIA's Secret War in Tibet. University
of Kansas Press. &
Thomas Laird. 2002
Into Tibet: The CIA's First Atomic Spy and His Secret Expedition to Lhasa.
&&New York: Grove Press。
Garver, John W.
1997. The Sino-American Alliance: Nationalist China and American Cold War
Strategy in Asia.& M.E. Sharpe.
Ali, S. Mahmud.
1999. Cold War in the High Himalayas: The USA, China, and South Asia in
the 1950s. St. Martin's Press.
Goldstein, Melvyn
C.& 1997. The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet and
the Dalai Lama. University of California Press.
Goldstein,
Melvyn C.& 1989. A History of Modern Tibet, :
The Demise of the Lamaist State.&& University of
California Press.
Tsering. 1999. The Dragon in the Land of Snows: A History of Modern Tibet
since 1947. Columbia University Press.
Grunfeld, A. Tom.
1996. The Making of Modern Tibet.& M. E. Sharpe.
Smith, Warren W.&
1996. Tibetan Nation: A History of Tibetan Nationalism and Sino-Tibetan
Relations.& Westview Press.
Lee, Feigon. 1998.
Demystifying Tibet: Unlocking the Secrets of the Land of the Snow. Rowman
and Littlefield.
Christopher I. 1987. The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia: A History of the
Struggle for Great Power among Tibetans, Turks, Arabs, and Chinese during the
Early Middle Ages. Princeton University Press.
Andrew Martin. 2005. State Growth and Social Exclusion in Tibet:
Challenge of Recent Economic Growth. Copenhagen: NIAS Press.
Tucci, Giuseppe.
2000. The Religion in Tibet. New York: Kegan Paul.
Dawa. 2001. China's
Tibet Policy. Curzon Press.
The author of The
Structure and Evolution of Chinese Social Stratification (University
Press of America, 2005)
- Hide quoted text -
On 4/8/08, Linda Dwyer, Independent Scholar& &dwyer@mail.h-net.msu.edu&
April 8, 2008
Dr. Ann Kent on China, Tibet, and the Olympics
*****************
From: Darrell Dorrington&& Darrell.Dorrington@ANU.EDU.AU
In view of the imminent visit by the Australian Prime Minister to Beijing,
the following article, published by a distinguished local China and human
rights specialist, is very timely and thought provoking.
"Playing Games on Chinese."&&04 April 2008, by Dr. Ann&&Kent
http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/news/opinion/opinion/playing-games-on-c
hinese/1216419.html
Ann&&Kent is a Visiting Fellow in the ANU College of Law and author
Beyond&&Compliance: China, International Organizations and Global
Security (Stanford&&CA: Stanford University Press, 2007).
Darrell Dorrington
Australian National University
******************************************************************
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send your message to:
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H-ASIA NOMAIL
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H-ASIA MAIL
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发表于：08-04-11 12:18
from Yi Li &dr.liyi@ & hide details 8:57 pm (0 minutes ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 10,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Tibet and China issue - further observations
mailed-by gmail.com
Thank dear Jeannine for her vivid orientation. I disagree with her on both points.
The first is Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan language. Just like she said that, the
theocratic, feudal Tibetan society was wiped out in 1959. Currently, and in next
a couple of decades, Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan langrage are not in danger. Mainly
for political reasons, currently, Chinese government spends a huge amount of money
and energy to protect Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan language. However, in the long
run, it is really hard to say. The reason is the market economy. The market economy
has wiped out a huge amount of old Chinese culture and old Chinese languages in
an astonishing speed in last one hundred years, especially in last three decades.
In thirty years or fifty years, most part of the Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan language
may or may not be wiped out by the market economy. In fifty years, if it really
happens, in my view, so be it. In the processes of the modernization in the U.S.,
Japan, Germany, Britain and France, many things were wiped out, such as most part
of the religions and languages of American Indians. As a social scientist, it is
hard for me to say it is a good thing or bad thing. If it will not be wiped out,
so be it. If it will be wiped out, so be it. Do you want American government protect
or recover American Indian cultures or languages? It is your freedom, but I doubt
American government will care what you think.
The second is the status of Tibet, the so called Dalai Lama's non-violence, and
the future of Dalai Lama. Tibet is a part of China for 700 hundred years. After
the railroad reached Lasa, Tibet integrates with rest of China more rapidly mainly
because of the market economy. This is just the beginning. It will be faster. In
this world, I see no government will dare to separate Tibet from China. The so-called
Dalai Lama's non-violence is cheating, please see:
Knaus, John Kenneth. 1999. Orphans of the Cold War: American and the Tibetan Struggle
for Survival. PublicAffairs.
Conboy, Kenneth and James Morrison. 2002. The CIA's Secret War in Tibet. University
of Kansas Press.
Thomas Laird. 2002 Into Tibet: The CIA's First Atomic Spy and His Secret Expedition
to Lhasa. New York: Grove Press。
Garver, John W. 1997. The Sino-American Alliance: Nationalist China and American
Cold War Strategy in Asia. M.E. Sharpe.
Ali, S. Mahmud. 1999. Cold War in the High Himalayas: The USA, China, and South
Asia in the 1950s. St. Martin's Press.
Goldstein, Melvyn C. 1997. The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet and the Dalai
Lama. University of California Press.
Not only Dalai Lama's non-violence is a kind of cheating, but also, just like mentioned
many times by Dr. Kissinger, the non-violence of Gandhi was a kind of cheating
also. Someone else prepared for an independent war to seek Indian independence
from Britain, which was a major leverage for Gandhi threatened British government.
Current fourteenth Dalai Lama will die sooner or later. The Tibetan government
in India will disappear soon after the death of fourteenth Dalai Lama. There was
a thirteenth, and there will be a fifteenth. According to the constitution of Buddhism
Dalai Lama, Beijing will appoint and educate fifteenth Dalai Lama. I see the U.S.
and India have no way to change it. When fifteenth Dalai Lama, appointed and educated
by Beijing, takes care daily affairs of Tibetan Buddhism, this whole thing will
go away. It will take decades. It mainly depends on when the fourteenth Dalai Lama
Please educate me if I am wrong.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
- Hide quoted text -
On 4/10/08, wrote:
April 10, 2008
Further observations on the Tibet and China issue (and earlier postings)
************************************************************************
From: Jeannine Chandler &&
Hello all:
I may be traversing previously explored territory here, but I would like to comment
on Dr. Wei's criticism of the Dalai Lama's use of the term 'cultural genocide'.
To my knowledge, this term began to appear with the concerted international Tibet
campaign/ movement of the late 1980s, early 1990s, as a purposeful means to bring
the Tibet issue to the international forefront without using terms that might offend
China such as 'status,' 'independence,' or 'nation-state.' Robert Barnett and Keila
Diehl have noted that Tibet's political agenda has been facilitated by the promotion
of this image of Tibetan culture as unique, and Tibetan Buddhism as endangered.
(See Robert Barnett, "'Violated Specialness': Western Political Representations
of Tibet," in Thierry Dodin and Heinz R&ther (eds.), _Imagining Tibet:
Perceptions, Projections and Fantasies_ (Boston: Wisdom Publications, 2001); Keila
Diehl, _Echoes from Dharamsala: Music in the Life of a Tibetan Refugee Community_,
(Berkeley: University of California Press, 2002).
I think Dr. Wei's analogy comparing the American Civil War with China's occupation/liberation
of Tibet is somewhat specious, given that slavery was a social-economic component
of American society, rather than its cultural core. With the Tibet situation, a
theocratic, feudal society did exist, but what is at issue here is the steps taken
to suppress, silence and eliminate the Tibetan religion (which is, in essence,
its cultural core), and other components of Tibetan identity, such as language.
In addition, Dr. Wei's point regarding footbinding and concubinage is similarly
flawed, as footbinding/concubinage were social customs and did not constitute a
Chinese cultural core. Thus I think we have to look at a broader cultural picture
rather than pick out individual temporary practices that did not serve as defining
cultural characteristics. I don't think anyone can argue that the issue here is
a fervent Tibetan desire to reinstitute corvee labor.
Regarding Dr. Li's comments on the Dalai Lama and Tibet's status, I would just
like to mention that for decades, the Dalai Lama has advocated non- violence, international
pressure and 'the Middle Way' as means to an autonomous Tibet. It is important
to note that once the Dalai Lama dies, the primary advocate for non-violence and
'the Middle Way' will disappear. With that, there will no longer be a bridle to
check the activism of the more radical and youthful elements of Tibetan society
(both within Tibet and in exile), many of whom have been pressing for more action
(and criticizing the Dalai Lama's promotion of autonomy over independence) as of
late. In the minds of many of these radicals, the value and efficacy of violence
in protest has been determined without a doubt in recent weeks as demonstrated
by the international attention directed at the Tibet issue. And to anyone who thinks
that this will go away after the Olympics, I would say, wait until next spring--not
only will there be the 50th anniversary of the March 10th movement, but also the
20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre. Years from now, we may see the
Chinese government wishing for the mediating presence of the Dalai Lama.
Jeannine Chandler
PhD candidate, History
University at Albany, State University of New York
******************************************************************
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发表于：08-04-15 04:17
发表于: 4/11/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.liyi@ & hide details
8:57 pm (0 minutes ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 10,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Tibet and China issue - further observations
mailed-by gmail.com
Thank dear Jeannine for her vivid orientation. I disagree with her on both
The first is Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan language. Just like she said that,
the theocratic, feudal Tibetan society was wiped out in 1959. Currently, and
in next a couple of decades, Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan langrage are not
in danger. Mainly for political reasons, currently, Chinese government spends
a huge amount of money and energy to protect Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan language.
However, in the long run, it is really hard to say. The reason is the market
economy. The market economy has wiped out a huge amount of old Chinese culture
and old Chinese languages in an astonishing speed in last one hundred years,
especially in last three decades. In thirty years or fifty years, most part
of the Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan language may or may not be wiped out by
the market economy. In fifty years, if it really happens, in my view, so be
it. In the processes of the modernization in the U.S., Japan, Germany, Britain
and France, many things were wiped out, such as most part of the religions
and languages of American Indians. As a social scientist, it is hard for me
to say it is a good thing or bad thing. If it will not be wiped out, so be
it. If it will be wiped out, so be it. Do you want American government protect
or recover American Indian cultures or languages? It is your freedom, but I
doubt American government will care what you think.
The second is the status of Tibet, the so called Dalai Lama's non-violence,
and the future of Dalai Lama. Tibet is a part of China for 700 hundred years.
After the railroad reached Lasa, Tibet integrates with rest of China more rapidly
mainly because of the market economy. This is just the beginning. It will be
faster. In this world, I see no government will dare to separate Tibet from
China. The so-called Dalai Lama's non-violence is cheating, please see:
Knaus, John Kenneth. 1999. Orphans of the Cold War: American and the Tibetan
Struggle for Survival. PublicAffairs.
Conboy, Kenneth and James Morrison. 2002. The CIA's Secret War in Tibet. University
of Kansas Press.
Thomas Laird. 2002 Into Tibet: The CIA's First Atomic Spy and His Secret Expedition
to Lhasa. New York: Grove Press。
Garver, John W. 1997. The Sino-American Alliance: Nationalist China and American
Cold War Strategy in Asia. M.E. Sharpe.
Ali, S. Mahmud. 1999. Cold War in the High Himalayas: The USA, China, and South
Asia in the 1950s. St. Martin's Press.
Goldstein, Melvyn C. 1997. The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet and the
Dalai Lama. University of California Press.
Not only Dalai Lama's non-violence is a kind of cheating, but also, just like
mentioned many times by Dr. Kissinger, the non-violence of Gandhi was a kind
of cheating also. Someone else prepared for an independent war to seek Indian
independence from Britain, which was a major leverage for Gandhi threatened
British government. Current fourteenth Dalai Lama will die sooner or later.
The Tibetan government in India will disappear soon after the death of fourteenth
Dalai Lama. There was a thirteenth, and there will be a fifteenth. According
to the constitution of Buddhism Dalai Lama, Beijing will appoint and educate
fifteenth Dalai Lama. I see the U.S. and India have no way to change it. When
fifteenth Dalai Lama, appointed and educated by Beijing, takes care daily affairs
of Tibetan Buddhism, this whole thing will go away. It will take decades. It
mainly depends on when the fourteenth Dalai Lama dies.
Please educate me if I am wrong.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
- Hide quoted text -
On 4/10/08, wrote:
April 10, 2008
Further observations on the Tibet and China issue (and earlier postings)
************************************************************************
From: Jeannine Chandler &&
Hello all:
I may be traversing previously explored territory here, but I would like to
comment on Dr. Wei's criticism of the Dalai Lama's use of the term 'cultural
genocide'. To my knowledge, this term began to appear with the concerted international
Tibet campaign/ movement of the late 1980s, early 1990s, as a purposeful means
to bring the Tibet issue to the international forefront without using terms
that might offend China such as 'status,' 'independence,' or 'nation-state.'
Robert Barnett and Keila Diehl have noted that Tibet's political agenda has
been facilitated by the promotion of this image of Tibetan culture as unique,
and Tibetan Buddhism as endangered. (See Robert Barnett, "'Violated Specialness':
Western Political Representations of Tibet," in Thierry Dodin and Heinz R&ther
(eds.), _Imagining Tibet: Perceptions, Projections and Fantasies_ (Boston:
Wisdom Publications, 2001); Keila Diehl, _Echoes from Dharamsala: Music in
the Life of a Tibetan Refugee Community_, (Berkeley: University of California
Press, 2002).
I think Dr. Wei's analogy comparing the American Civil War with China's occupation/liberation
of Tibet is somewhat specious, given that slavery was a social-economic component
of American society, rather than its cultural core. With the Tibet situation,
a theocratic, feudal society did exist, but what is at issue here is the steps
taken to suppress, silence and eliminate the Tibetan religion (which is, in
essence, its cultural core), and other components of Tibetan identity, such
as language. In addition, Dr. Wei's point regarding footbinding and concubinage
is similarly flawed, as footbinding/concubinage were social customs and did
not constitute a Chinese cultural core. Thus I think we have to look at a broader
cultural picture rather than pick out individual temporary practices that did
not serve as defining cultural characteristics. I don't think anyone can argue
that the issue here is a fervent Tibetan desire to reinstitute corvee labor.
Regarding Dr. Li's comments on the Dalai Lama and Tibet's status, I would just
like to mention that for decades, the Dalai Lama has advocated non- violence,
international pressure and 'the Middle Way' as means to an autonomous Tibet.
It is important to note that once the Dalai Lama dies, the primary advocate
for non-violence and 'the Middle Way' will disappear. With that, there will
no longer be a bridle to check the activism of the more radical and youthful
elements of Tibetan society (both within Tibet and in exile), many of whom
have been pressing for more action (and criticizing the Dalai Lama's promotion
of autonomy over independence) as of late. In the minds of many of these radicals,
the value and efficacy of violence in protest has been determined without a
doubt in recent weeks as demonstrated by the international attention directed
at the Tibet issue. And to anyone who thinks that this will go away after the
Olympics, I would say, wait until next spring--not only will there be the 50th
anniversary of the March 10th movement, but also the 20th anniversary of the
Tiananmen Square Massacre. Years from now, we may see the Chinese government
wishing for the mediating presence of the Dalai Lama.
Jeannine Chandler
PhD candidate, History
University at Albany, State University of New York
******************************************************************
To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to:
&H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&
For holidays or short absences send post to:
&listserv@h-net.msu.edu& with message:
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4/11/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.& hide
details 11:32 pm (0 minutes ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 10,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Regarding the article by Dr. Ann Kent on China, Tibet,
and the Olympics (comment)
mailed-by gmail.com
China already appointed a new Panchen Lama, the U.S. and India did not oppose
it. At same time, current Dalai Lama appointed another Panchen L no one
accepted it, including the U.S. and India.
Just like Joanna Kirkpatrick predicted, China will appoint next Dalai Lama.
Just like Joanna Kirkpatrick predicted, at the same time, 100,000 Tibetans
in India will appoint another Dalai Lama. Who cares? As long as the U.S. and
India do not oppose the Dalai Lama appoint by Beijing, and do not support the
Dalai Lama from India, the whole thing will go away. What the U.S. and India
will do? I do not know. It depends on the situation in the Middle East and
Pakistan. If American troops are still in Iraq and Israel-Palestine conflict
still going on, the U.S. will not support the Dalai Lama from India. If India
and Pakistan do not have an agreement on their boundaries, India dares not
support a new Dalai Lama from India. It looks like fourteenth Dalai Lama can
not live long enough to see agreements between Israel and Palestine, and between
India and Pakistan. Therefore, in my prediction, China will successfully appoint
and educate fifteenth Dalai Lama. China already did it many times, why you
think China can not do it now? Obviously, China can do better.
On Tibetan resistance, it is simply a very trivial thing. Guangdong province
was not a part of China. Guangdong people resisted many years. Qin and Han
dynasties spent a human amount of money and millions lives conquering and integrating
Guangdong province. Now, Guangdong province is number one province in China.
In 2007, the GDP of Guangdong province had surpassed the GDP of Taiwan province.
American Indians resisted many years, who cares? Historians focus on the results,
not the process.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
- Hide quoted text -
On 4/10/08, wrote:
April 10, 2008
Comment on earlier post regarding the article by Dr. Ann Kent on China, Tibet
and the Olympics
************************************************************************
From: Kirkpatrick
With reference to Dr. Yi Li's predictions of ultimate success of China
in establishing complete control of Tibet:
I would add just a note: factually speaking: although the Chinese government
has said they will name the next Dalai Lama, Dr. Li's prediction of this event
as ending Tibetan resistance doesn't conform wholly to various media reports.
The Dalai Lama is quoted in an
interview restricted to three journalists-"If my death comes when we are still
in a refugee status then logically my reincarnation will come outside Tibet."
So regardless whether China appoints their Dalai Lama, as they did with the
Panchen Lama, the exiled Tibetans (as well as many still in Tibet, judging
by recent resistances there) won't support the Chinese appointments.
Here is one press article on the topic, reported in news.com.au, November
http://tinyurl.com/63xgu9 I've seen many other similar reports, but for
brevity will not cite them here.
Joanna Kirkpatrick
Bennington College, ret.
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4/11/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.& hide
details 12:14 am (0 minutes ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 11,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Tibet and China - further historical observations
mailed-by gmail.com
I disagree with Professor Thomas Bartlett on Chinese history.
In Qin and Han Dynasties, Han Chinese did have a military advantage over nomads,
and they extend China to today's Xinjiang province.
Yuan dynasty exactly was a Chinese dynasty. The emperors of Yuan dynasties
themselves said many times that Yuan dynasty was a Chinese dynasty followed
Qin, Han, and Tang. I saw it in many historical literatures. I saw it by my
owe eyes in Qu Fu, Shangdong province, the hometown of Confucian.
Professor Thomas Bartlett made a big mistake here. Yuan dynasty was not the
Mongolian empire. Yuan dynasty was only one fourth or one fifth of the Mongolian
empire. Yuan dynasty came from the broken of Mongolian empire, which four or
five times bigger than Yuan dynasty. Yuan dynasty was a Chinese dynasty between
the Chinese dynasties before, and Chinese dynasties after. Tibet was a part
of Chinese Yuan dynasty, so Tibet was a part of China 700 years ago.
California and Hawaii are the part of the United State. It does not matter
for how long time. As long as they are a part of the United States, Californian
history and Hawaiian history are the part of American history.
Please educate me if I am wrong.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
- Hide quoted text -
On 4/10/08, wrote:
April 10, 2008
Further historical observations concerning Tibet and China
************************************************************************
From: Thomas Bartlett &.au&
Tibet certainly did not become a part of China 700 years ago. Tibet and
China were then two different regions which were both ruled by the Mongols
as parts of the Yuan dynasty. China was only one part of the Y
Tibet was another part of the Yuan dynasty. When the Yuan dynasty fell, the
Ming dynasty did not have any control over Tibet.
In general, the non-Chinese people could invade and rule China because of
the military advantage gained by their nomadic horse-riding culture. But
before the late 19th century, Chinese armies were not able to conquer and
hold permanently the non-Chinese lands. The Tang dynasty's power in Central
Asia was mainly accomplished by alliances with Turks, Uighurs, and other
militarily powerful non-Chinese peoples. The Tang's central power broke up
in rebellion immediately after the Tang army was defeated by the Arabs at
the Talas River. The key in that battle was the defection of the Turkish
forces from the Tang side to the Arab side.
The early Ming emperors Taizu and Yongle sent numerous military campaigns to
the north and northeast, into Mongolia and Manchuria, but they were never
able to hold and administer those territories directly, because the local
people were not culturally Chinese. At best, the Ming dynasty resorted only
to symbolic diplomacy such as they used with Korea, Japan, Vietnam and other
foreign neighbours.
China is the English word equivalent to "Zhongguo". 700 years ago,
"Zhongguo" was part of the Yuan dynasty, and Tibet was not part of
"Zhongguo". Tibet's leaders in the Yuan period were monks such as Phagspa
who was the teacher of Khubilai Khan. Khubilai Khan installed Phagspa as
head of the Xuanzheng Yuan, the Commission for Tibetan and Buddhist Affairs,
which was in charge of Buddhist establishments in China Proper, and also in
No Chinese officials were resident administrators in Tibet during the Yuan
it was entirely administered by Tibetans, assigned by the Mongol
That situation in Tibet contrasts vividly with the Yuan dynasty's rule in
China Proper, where dual staffing was used, so a Mongol or Central Asian
officer, called "darughachi", was assigned to oversee the Chinese local
Chinese official.
In early Qing, the Kangxi emperor employed Jesuit missionaries as resident
"foreign experts" to provide technical support in diplomacy with Russia, in
cannon making, in astronomy, and in cartography. Kangxi commissioned the
Jesuits to draw maps of the new Qing realm, using their advanced
mathematical and cartographic skills. A so-called "New Map of the Empire of
the Chinese" was published in the Netherlands in the late 17th century
around the same time. It shows a broken line around the territories of
China as it was known then. Outside that broken line was a region called
"Si Fan", meaning "western barbarians", which included Tibet. In the
official dynastic history of the Ming dynasty, published in 1750, all
references to Tibet are contained in the section called "Xiyu liezhuan",
meaning "Records of the Western Region", where the western barbarians lived.
In 1842 the distinguished Chinese scholar Wei Yuan wrote in "Sheng Wu Ji"
(Record of the Qing Emperors' Military Campaigns) that the so-called 17
provinces (of China Proper) and the 3 Eastern provinces (of the Manchu
homeland) were "Zhongguo". Wei Yuan further said that "Wei Zang" were to
the south of "Zhongguo", outside it.
But the definition of "Zhongguo" has been drastically expanded only since
the late 19th century, to include all the non-Chinese regions which were
conquered by Manchu imperialism. But many of the indigenous people of those
so-called "border regions" still have the same historical consciousness of
being something other than Chinese.
China exerted varying degrees of influence on Tibet, as it did on other
neighboring countries, during the Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties, but nobody
then ever considered Tibet to be part of "Zhongguo".
Thomas Bartlett
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4/11/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.& hide
details 12:53 am (15 hours ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 11,
subject Re: H-ASIA: China and Tibet - revisiting the history
mailed-by gmail.com
I disagree with Professor Paul D. Buell from Western Washington University.
Professor Paul D. Buell made a big mistake on the nature of Yuan dynasty. Like
I said in my last response, Yuan dynasty was not the Mongolian empire. Mongolian
empire was several times bigger than Yuan dynasty, and Yuan dynasty came from
the broken of Mongolian empire. Yuan dynasty is a Chinese dynasty, just like
Chinese dynasties before it, and Chinese dynasties after it. Yuan dynasty itself
claimed it was a Chinese dynasty, followed Qin, Han and Tang dynasty.
Yuan dynasty took Tibet as a part of Yuan dynasty, and Tibet took itself as
a part of Yuan dynasty. Therefore, Tibet was a part of China 700 hundred years
ago. This is not new in China. Guangdong province was not a part China, but
a couple of independent states in Qin and Han dynasties. It takes time for
China integrating Guangdong province, so be Tibet.
Just like Californian history and Hawaiian history are a part of American history,
Tibetan history is a part of Chinese history.
Please educate me if I am wrong.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
- Hide quoted text -
On 4/10/08, wrote:
April 10, 2008
Revisiting history--in response to other posts on China and Tibet
**********************************************************************
From: Paul Buell &&
With reference to Yi Li's generalization about Tibet and China in history:
I presume by 700 years ago, Yi Li is referring to the submission of the
Sa-skya Pandita to prince Koden in the name of various Tibetan groups and
the later connection of his monastic group to Qubilai-qan and his house.
Leaving entirely aside that it was the Mongol state in East and Central Asia
that was involved, and not China, which was itself only a part of this
state, there were never any Chinese armies or even Chinese administrators in
Tibet during the period. Tibet in fact was, by the international standards
of today, entirely independent during the period, staffing its own
government, managing its own affairs and, to be sure, practicing its own
religion as it saw fit, not the case today. I suspect that if we had a time
machine and went back and asked 'Phags-pa, the first of Qubilai's official
chiefs of religion, why he had suddenly become Chinese he would have gasped
in amazement. But this Mongol-era connection is, in part, what the Chinese
claim is based. Tibet was no more a part of China during the period than was
any other Qubilai ally or subdued area, e.g., Mongol Iran, briefly Ca'adai
domains, northern Vietnam, Korea, etc., etc. In fact, if we want to press
things, China should today belong to Mongolia! The Qing connection with
Tibet was equally tenuous.
Paul D. Buell
Western Washington University
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4/13/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.& hide
details Apr 11 (2 days ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 11,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Tibet and China issues -from perspective of Korea
mailed-by gmail.com
Both California and Hawaii were not a part the United States, but they are
Both Korea and Vietnam were a part of China, but they are not now.
Taiwan, Xinjang, and Tibet are a part of China now, but they may get independence
later. Outer Mongolia already got independence.
This is the nature of this issue. Anything is possible. This is why Chinese
leaders have to fight hard integrating Xinjiang and Tibet as soon as possible,
and getting back Taiwan as soon as possible. Chinese leaders do not want Taiwan,
Xinjiang, or Tibet becoming another Outer Mongolia. Will China win? Under current
situation, my prediction is that, China will win.
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
On 4/11/08, wrote:
April 11, 2008
Tibet, China ... and Korea?? - a further perspective
**********************************************************************
From: Donald Baker &dbaker@interchange.ubc.ca&
This brief glimpse of Korean history suggests, first of all, the China's claims
to Tibet on historical grounds are as tenuous as claims to Korea would be.
Second, it suggests that China's claim today that Tibet is an integral part
of China may collapse sometime in the future as completely as Japan's claim
to Korea did.
Department of Asian Studies
University of British Columbia
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4/13/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.& hide
details Apr 11 (2 days ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 11,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Tibet and China - a correction
mailed-by gmail.com
After the fall of Qing dynasty, not a single ROC leader gave up Tibet. Sun
Zhongshan, Yuan Shikai, and Jiang Jieshi, all clearly and strongly claimed
that Tibet is a part of China.
There was a ministry within ROC government, named meng zang wei yuan hui, "Ministry
of Mongol and Tibet." The current Dalai Lama was appointed face to face by
the Minister of this ministry, Wu Zhongxin. (This ministry was still within
Taiwan government several years ago. I remember, several years ago, when Taiwan
invited Dalai Lama visiting Taiwan, Dalai Lama angrily pronounced that, what
he hated most in Taiwan is this ministry. )
In 1945, in a meeting of big powers, British PM Churchill questioned Tibet
as a part of China. Jiang Jieshi ordered Song Ziwen, Chinese PM, strongly criticized
Churchill, on the record. Jiang and Song reiterated that, Tibet definitely
was always a part of China.
ROC also had officials and army stationed in Tibet. When Mao won the civil
war over Jiang, Tibetan militants surrounded ROC officials and ROC army in
Tibet, took their weapons, and drove them out of Tibet.
During the Cold War, when the U.S. supported Tibet Independence, Jiang Jieshi
in Taiwan was very unhappy about it.
Please educate me if I am wrong,
Most sincerely,
Li Yi Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Chinese_model
http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-books/book/
http://www.univpress.com/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/ISBN/
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/
On 4/11/08, wrote:
April 11, 2008
Republic of China's views re: Tibet--a correction
**********************************************************************
From: Peter Kovas &&
Please strike my remark that the leaders of the ROC did not challenge
Tibet's declaration of independence after the fall of the Qing dynasty. I
apologize for the mistake.
Sincerely,
Peter Kovas
History Teacher,
San Francisco California.
4/13/ 发表主题: 继续讨论
from Yi Li &dr.& hide
details 1:58 pm (0 minutes ago)
H-Net list for Asian History and Culture &H-ASIA@h-net.msu.edu&,
Frank Conlon &conlon@u.washington.edu&
date Apr 13,
subject Re: H-ASIA: Tibet and China -- responding to recent post from Dr. Yi
mailed-by gmail.com
Tibet and China -- responding to the post from Stephanie Donald to Yi Li
*********************************************************************
From beginning, several scholars, including me, strongly appealed that, maybe
this is not a good place to discuss Tibet-China here, especially in a non-academic
way. However, this discussion is encouraged and continued. Stephanie Donald
wrote a very long comment, with four points, to my comments. Lai er bu wang
fei li ye. I have to response, without excuse.
I respectfully disagree with Stephanie Donald, point by point.
Stephanie Donald: "1. Yes, there have been human rights' violations across
the history of nation, state and empire building. Human Rights as a concept
has been pieced together to try and combat these abuses and cruelties. The
fact of multiple violations does not excuse them, or excuse contemporary Governments
from being challenged about them."
Li Yi: 1. No, something can not be challenged, something can.
The word "contemporary" used by Stephanie Donald here is completely wrong .
What is "contemporary?" In 1959, the United States built the State of Hawaii
and State of A at the same year, CIA directly fanned and supported Tibetan
separatist war, tried hard to separate Tibet from China. In 1961, to against
Tibet as a part of China, India started a war with China. Pentagon and CIA
trained thousands Tibetan modern warriors fought a guerrilla war in Tibet from
1959 to 1971. Is 1959 contemporary? Is 1961 contemporary? Is 1971 contemporary?
Current Dalai Lama was the head of the Tibetans who fought all these anti-Chinese
wars. Dalai Lama stopped the Tibet separatist war only after Nixon visited
Mao. Is Dalai Lama contemporary?
As I said again, again, and again, I do not blame anyone here. For me it was
a so beautiful strategic action for American president, to build State of Hawaii
and to start a separatist war in Tibet at the same year. For the same token,
I do not blame any Chinese leader to use any means, to integrate Tibet and
Xinjiang, to get Taiwan back, as long as it works. If someday, for Chinese
national interest, China fans and starts a separatist war in California and
Hawaii, no one have a moral right to blame Chinese